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Interview: Matt Thorne, novelist


Dolan Cummings

The grotesque peasants stalk the land
And deep down inside you know
Everybody wants to like big companies.

'New Puritan', The Fall, 1983

At just 30, Matt Thorne is already the author of six novels and a children's book, as well as having co-edited All Hail the New Puritans (2000), an anthology of new writing with which Thorne and Nicholas Blincoe set out to revitalise contemporary literature. His latest novel, Cherry, which was longlisted for this year's Man Booker Prize, is a sort of hybrid of sci-fi/fantasy and detective story, driven by an unreliable narrator, that offers an enigmatic but perceptive take on 21st century urban life.

The protagonist, Steve Ellis, tells the story of how he came to meet Cherry, his perfect woman, after chatting to an old man in a bar, and soon found himself following more and more bizarre instructions in an effort to hold on to her, leading to moral confusion, existential doubt and eventual disaster. Thorne feels that the novel is very contemporary. 'For me as a writer, it grew out of a period of uncertainty. I spent the end of last year and the beginning of this year trying to create a character that would have something of the anxiety that I felt was very prevalent in the culture at the time.'

While a couple of reviewers have seen the novel as a morality tale about the dangers of seeking perfection, Thorne is more interested in the mechanics of his character's moral degeneration. 'For me there is a moral sense to the novel, but based around the idea of people being prepared to do things individually, based on very shaky evidence and weird circumstances, and how that expands to a very collective sense about what we would do.' Of course national politics at the time he was writing was dominated by the Hutton Inquiry, and it's not hard to see a parallel with the 'shaky evidence' for the war in Iraq, but Thorne has picked up on a more general phenomenon.

'Basically, I want the main character to be seen to be doing things as a result of patently strange instructions and circumstances, and he doesn't really question what's going on. That's him being an example of the society he's in. It's more that question of unthinking following of people who seem to have knowledge or to be in authority.' What Thorne is describing is not strictly political conformism, however, but something much newer. After all, the Hutton Inquiry only underlined popular cynicism about the government. There seems to be increasing uncertainty about where authority lies, whether with the media, with 'experts' or whoever.

Thorne's insight is that in such a context, individuals are more rather than less vulnerable to manipulation (even perhaps by the governments and big companies they profess to despise). It is all the more significant and important, then, that he does not absolve his character of moral responsibility for his actions. However confused and disoriented Steve might be, he still has choices. 'I think he makes decisions at every stage. Everything in the novel is down to him in a way, that at every stage he makes a wrong decision, I think, rather than just being dragged along.'

Despite this, or actually because of it, for me at least Steve is a sympathetic narrator, albeit an unreliable one. Whether his decisions are right or wrong, he at least is recognisable as a human being, capable of making decisions in pursuit of a recognisably human goal. While the consequences of his decisions are dire, his obsession with Cherry does endow him with a resolve and a single-mindedness that contrast favourably with his previous, slacker disposition, one that is all too familiar in contemporary culture.

Thorne's interest in character and the psychology of decision-making is central to Cherry, and sets his approach apart from the more postmodern current in recent literature, which is apparent in some of this year's other Booker longlisted titles. 'I think character is really important. I know a lot of the eighties novelists were saying that character wasn't important and you get Amis saying things like his characters could pretty much just have t-shirts saying 'slut' and 'villain' and things like that. I am very much against that.'

While Thorne want his characters to be real people, however, it doesn't follow that they should necessarily be likeable. 'In all my novels, but particularly in Eight Minutes Idle and Child Star, I've had characters that seem to some people to be very sympathetic, but some people see to be completely sociopathic or psychopathic, and I very much wanted to push that further along, so you are forced to make a choice, and that choice forces your reading of the novel.'

Now I'm starting to worry that I've got Cherry wrong. 'Given that the whole thing is told by him [Steve], not just that he's an unreliable narrator,' Thorne goes on helpfully, 'I think that he comes across as more sympathetic because of the way he's describing himself rather than because he is a fundamentally sympathetic character.' Right. So I'm not supposed to admire Steve's romantic resolve, and maybe that's led me astray. But then what does the author know?

For all the novel's ambiguity, Thorne insists that there is one particular reading that explains everything 'I try to feed that through the book, so hopefully it's there,' he says, 'but at the same time I wanted to have some ambiguity, because I am aware that certain readers would have a problem with the sci-fi or fantasy elements and I wanted them to be able to explain it to themselves in such a way that's satisfying.' So, perhaps my interpretation is not altogether illegitimate, after all.

In allowing the novel to operate on different levels, Thorne has ceded a degree of authorship to the reader. It sounds like a very contemporary trick, but arguably he is only formalising something that is always there in any work of literature, a certain creative gap between the intention of the author and the response of the reader.

'I see the characters as always basically essentially separate from me. That's the most important element. I think good novelists can create characters that are completely independent of their creator, and I think you need to know what they would say depending on the situation. That said, I think its difficult - there's a famous Nabokov quote about EM Forster where he says that Forster says that his characters run away and start doing things that he hadn't expected, and Nabokov responded that he always had complete control of his characters and that he knew exactly what they would do, and that if he was in a EM Forster novel he would run away too. I suppose it's all about getting the balance between the two positions.

'I always have an absolutely cast-iron sense of the structure of the novel and what's going to happen within it, but the characters do have a slightly independent life and I spend a lot time thinking whether they would say that, and it's very important that they don't have access to information that they wouldn't actually have, and there are quite a few modern novels that fall down for me on that. The minute I start reading a conversation, and I feel I'm hearing the author through the characters - it's OK if it's first person narrative, but if it's in dialogue it's a big weakness for me.'

Thorne also reviews for the Independent, and clearly has a great critical interest in literary trends beyond his own work. As a novelist himself, though, he recognises that the difficulties facing writers are not merely technical. 'I think character is very important, but equally I think you need to construct characters in different ways in writing at the moment. Part of what we did with the New Puritans was defining characters through their choice of culture, I suppose, their taste in music and films.'

In this sense, Thorne suggests that writers have to adapt to the times, picking up for example on the importance of consumerism in defining identity. The challenge of creating characters who are genuinely independent of their creator is to make them recognisable to the reader, and as society changes, that becomes complicated. The use of cultural preferences is an implicit recognition that more traditional markers of character - to take two very simplified examples, social class and education - no longer carry the same meaning, but this is a risky strategy. What might be a telling detail in one context can be as clichéd as one of Martin Amis' deliberately clichéd t-shirts in another.

Moreover, it is difficult to come up with characterisations of this kind that are recognisable to all readers, irrespective of their own backgrounds and knowledge, as Thorne acknowledges. 'I'm also aware that that can be alienating to some readers. They don't necessarily see the gradients within that, a character liking a certain type of music. I think that can become slightly alienating, so I didn't want to do that in this novel.

'Steve doesn't really have taste - he just goes out and buys whatever is popular at the moment. I just wanted a kind of general everyman rather than someone who defines himself through what he reads or listens to or watches. But at the same time I wanted to have within the narrative some references for people to pick up that would be outside of his character and that he would see, but wouldn't really be able to comprehend.'

It is an interesting strategy. In choosing a theme as apparently universal as love, with such an everyman at the heart of the story, Thorne invites certain assumptions on the part of the reader, but then proceeds to pick these apart, unsettling us by abandoning realism, and then offering clues that root the novel's unreality in the world as we know it. The result is compelling, though Thorne's desire to make the novel 'satisfying' on a variety of readings may frustrate as much as it satisfies.

More interesting than the mysteries of the plot, however, is the novel's ambiguous morality. And indeed, when it comes to making moral judgements about characters, that gap between the intention of the writer and the response of the reader is surely all the more important. But it takes on a particular significance at a time when there is little agreement on the big moral questions. The sense of anxiety and uncertainty noted by Thorne affects not only our sense of what makes a person him or herself, but also our sense of what is right or wrong.

If social class no longer carries the same meaning, morality is all the more vexed. While some of Steve's actions in Cherry are undoubtedly wrong, those reviewers who have seen it as a morality tale are reading the novel with old-fashioned assumptions. There is little in the novel itself, nor in the society it describes, to suggest a moral critique of Steve's determined pursuit of self-fulfilment, at least until he crosses a rather obvious line. In turn, my sympathy for Steve arises less from any intention of the author than from my own (sociopathic?) mindset.

Of course, novelists have always had to negotiate a variety of conflicting expectations and preconceptions in their readers, but the task of creating characters and situations that are both internally coherent and true to life is perhaps harder than ever when readers cannot be relied on even to share a worldview about which they can disagree. This is not to say that it isn't possible to give the appearance of moral coherence, but (as the present government is given to demonstrating) too often this is done by resorting to cliché or the lowest common denominator. Just as cynicism about politics paradoxically leaves the public open to manipulation, moral uncertainty invites conformism.

To his credit, though, Thorne prefers to subvert conventional expectations, for example by giving Steve an unhappy childhood, but with creepily cheerful parents. 'Usually an unhappy childhood is one where there's a broken family or divorced parents, and in the end in this novel it is that fact that the parents are very happy together that causes a lot of his misery, so I'm trying to reverse the tradition.'

Cherry is loaded with such unsettling plays on contemporary themes, and Thorne clearly enjoys grappling with the complicated realities of a post-ideological consumer society, not least with its implications for character. Steve Ellis may not be a 'fundamentally sympathetic character', but perhaps such a creature was always an illusion peculiar to less uncertain times.

 

 
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